On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Ed O’Keefe:
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Retired Gen. Frank McKenzie, former commander of U.S. Central Command
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Democratic Gov. Wes Moore of Maryland
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Archbishop Timothy Broglio, who heads the Catholic Archdiocese for the Military Services, USA
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A panel with Amy Walter, publisher and editor-in-chief of the Cook Political Report; David Sanger, a White House and national security correspondent at The New York Times; and Jeff Mason, a White House correspondent at Bloomberg
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Jared Isaacman, NASA administrator
Click here to browse full transcripts from 2026 of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
ED O’KEEFE: I’m Ed O’Keefe in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation: The missing crew member from a downed fighter jet in Iran is rescued in a daring mission.
Plus: Artemis II makes its way around the moon.
Breaking overnight, a U.S. Air Force officer in Iran rescued alive after an urgent two-day manhunt involving special operations forces in a remote area of Iran where the F-15E fighter jet went down. We will get details on the operation and President Trump’s threats to escalate attacks unless Iran reopens the Strait of Hormuz. Former CENTCOM commander retired General Kenneth Frank McKenzie joins us to break it all down.
Plus, we will hear from Maryland’s Democratic Governor Wes Moore about the war’s effects here at home and analysis from our political panel.
On this Easter Sunday, Archbishop Timothy Broglio, who oversees Catholic chaplains in the military, shares the spiritual guidance he’s offering service members during wartime.
Then:
(Begin VT)
JEREMY HANSEN (Artemis II Crew Member): To watch the moon grow is exciting. That’s our destination. That’s where we’re locked onto.
(End VT)
ED O’KEEFE: Tomorrow, the crew of Artemis II makes history, becoming the first humans to see some parts of the far side of the moon. NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman gives us a mission update.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation. Margaret is off today.
But we begin with some good news this Easter Sunday morning, as that rescued officer is being flown to Kuwait to be treated for his injuries when his fighter jet got shot down Friday.
President Trump posted on TRUTH Social in the early hours of this morning, “We got him,” calling the operation “an amazing show of bravery and talent by all.”
As he’s renewed threats to Iran in recent days of intensifying military operations if they don’t negotiate, he also declared this morning that Tuesday will be power plant day and bridge day, all wrapped up in one.
Senior national security correspondent Charlie D’Agata has details on the mission.
(Begin VT)
CHARLIE D’AGATA (voice-over): Video this morning purports to show the smoldering wreckage of two U.S. C-130 130 transport planes that were involved in the rescue mission on a remote base in Iran. Sources tell us American forces blew them up in order to avoid them falling into enemy hands, standard U.S. military practice.
U.S. officials and White House sources describe a complex operation involving dozens of U.S. commandos and several dozen warplanes and helicopters in the search and eventual rescue of the missing F-15 crew member.
Attack helicopters and aircraft kept Iranian forces from getting anywhere near where the crewman was hiding. Armed Iranians had been scouring the mountainous terrain to find him first, with the promise of a huge cash reward.
But a Trump administration official tells CBS News the CIA was deeply involved, not only in the hunt, but in a ploy to spread false information inside Iran that U.S. forces had already found him and were transporting him by ground out of the country.
The race to find the two-man F-15 crew began on Friday. The pilot was rescued within hours of the fighter jet being brought down. He sustained some injuries. We have learned the second crewman is seriously wounded, according to President Trump.
The downing of the jet came amid a fierce U.S. bombing campaign in Iran, including blowing up Iran’s biggest bridge linking Tehran to key cities. Iran says more than a dozen people were killed. And Iran has continued to retaliate, striking an oil refinery in Iraq, launching strikes across the Gulf from Bahrain to Kuwait, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, and more missile barrages in Israel.
(End VT)
CHARLIE D’AGATA: Yesterday, President Trump again warned that time is running out for Iran to open up the Strait of Hormuz by tomorrow or the U.S. will unleash hell. A senior Iranian leader has rejected that ultimatum.
ED O’KEEFE: Charlie D’Agata in London, thank you.
We’re joined now by the former head of U.S. Central Command, retired General Frank McKenzie.
General, Happy Easter.
GEN. FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.) (Former Commander, U.S. Central Command): And the same to you, Ed.
ED O’KEEFE: So, it took just under 48 hours to find the missing weapons systems officer after the jet they were in went down in a remote and mountainous area of Southwestern Iran. The weapons officer was hiding in a mountainous crevice, we’re told by a senior administration official.
What’s your assessment of how the search-and-rescue operation went?
GEN. FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.): So I think I would draw two lessons from it, Ed, first of all, the excellence of the joint force, our ability to rapidly pivot to look for a downed air crewman.
We train for this endlessly. It’s a part of every time we send air crew over enemy territory. We have detailed, elaborate plans to go get them. It’s a very basic part of who we are as American fighting men and women. So that plan swung into action. I think it was executed pretty effectively.
As always, you’ve got somebody on the ground, may be injured. They got to get to a position where they can hide until you can get to them. All that seemed to work out very well. And, you know, we did, in fact, lose a couple of aircraft in that — in that mission.
But I would just tell you, it takes a year to build an aircraft. It takes 200 years to build a military tradition where you don’t leave anybody behind. You take the aircraft trade any day in a situation like this.
The other lesson, I think, is a hard lesson for Iran. First of all, they were not able to find the missing air crewman. Second, you know, they put out a broad appeal to their people to turn him in, reward, asking for all kinds of leads. That does not appear to have been successful.
And that would — I think that’s maybe a sign of disaffection. Don’t know. But you can’t — you can’t be happy with that if you’re a senior leader in Tehran this morning.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes, you know, Iran’s Revolutionary Guards now claiming responsibility for attacks on petrochemical plants in the UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain. They warn its attacks against U.S. economic interests will intensify if attacks on civilian targets in Iran are repeated.
Does Iran and its proxies retain the capacity to inflict serious damage at this point?
GEN. FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.): Ed, they have the ability to inflict damage. They do not have the ability to gain mass effects.
And by mass effects, I mean firing many, many dozens of rockets, missiles or drones. I think that capability has been eroded steadily since this campaign began. And, frankly, at about plus-30 days into this campaign, I think, if you’re at Central Command, you’ve got to be reasonably satisfied with where you are right now.
In fact, Ed, when I was the CENTCOM commander, if you had given me this situation at plus-30 days, I would have rejected it as being too optimistic by far. So we’ve had good effect. Our effects are going to continue. It’s going to be increasingly harder for them to launch missiles and rockets.
We may not get to zero for a while, and I think there’s still some time ahead, but everyone realizes that. But I think we’re on track here. This campaign is moving very effectively, and I believe the pace will pick up every day.
ED O’KEEFE: To your earlier point, the president said something interesting to FOX News this morning, revealing for the first time that the U.S. earlier this year had sent a — quote — “lot of guns” to the Kurds, who live in Northern Iraq, Northern Iran for use by protesters.
So, he wanted them to use these weapons and said — you know, inferring now that he was sending weapons to have the Iranian people rise up. On Wednesday night, though, in his big speech clarifying what the war is all about, he said, this campaign is not about regime change.
But if they are now, in fact, arming protesters, what might that signal?
GEN. FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.): Well, I think you want to put pressure on this regime in every way that you can. Arming Kurds certainly increases pressure on the Iranian regime.
We know from history that leadership in Iran responds when existential pressure is applied to the regime. Arming the Kurds moves you a step closer toward that. Even if your ultimate aim is not regime change, getting the regime in Tehran to a place where they’ll make a deal that’s to our liking is going to be the inevitable by product of intolerable pressure that’s placed over — on them.
And I think all of these add together to do that.
ED O’KEEFE: You said last week a success for the White House is that the Strait of Hormuz reopens.
But that vital passageway, of course, remains effectively choked off. The president this Easter morning used some, shall we say, colorful language to threaten Iran again to reopen the strait.
If the U.S. launches its own military operation in the coming days to open the strait, what’s it going to take militarily to do that?
GEN. FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.): Well, let me — let me say, first of all, we do have the ability to open the strait should we choose to do it.
And what you’re seeing now are the — what I would call the precursor or the initial steps in such a campaign. You want to reduce Iran’s ability to fire short-range rockets and missiles into the strait against warships. You want to take out their fast attack craft.
Think of them as cigarette boats, large, powerful outboard engine boats, that can race out and get among ships and cause direct damage that way. What we’re doing is, we’re going after all those vessels. And that’s where A-10s, attack aircraft, attack helicopters and other slow-moving, low-altitude platforms are so very effective.
So we’re in the process of removing those right now. At the same time, we’re working to get rid of Iran’s mine stockpile. The mines are very dangerous. They had thousands when the war began. I have no doubt we have significantly attrited now.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
GEN. FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.): Of course, it doesn’t take many mines to cause a significant blockage to world shipping. So, all of that is under way right now.
And you want to reduce those to a low level before you put your warships up there to actually sort of test the waters in that strait. I have no idea what Admiral Cooper’s decision-making process is going to be for that, but I think we’re well on the way to achieving those goals.
ED O’KEEFE: Can the strait be reopened with an air and naval campaign, or are you going to need ground troops?
GEN. FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.): I think it could be opened with an air and naval campaign.
And the use of ground troops would probably be along the line of raids. And, remember, a raid is an attack with a planned withdrawal, where you don’t plan to stay. The one exception might be Kharg Island. I know the president has talked about it. I think it has a unique place in Iranian culture because of one thing.
If you seize it, you’re holding Iranian soil. Secondly, it is the critical mode through which all their oil supplies pass. By seizing it, you have the opportunity to cut that off, inflicting grievous damage on the Iranian economy, and yet with the opportunity perhaps to return it as part of a negotiation process.
Further, you don’t permanently damage the global economy by destroying the infrastructure. So I think Kharg Island is a very lucrative target. I’m sure we’re looking at it hard right now. I have no idea if we’re going to choose to go up there.
ED O’KEEFE: In our last 30 seconds or so, here, General, bottom line, this. The president says two to three weeks is all that it’s going to take.
Would you agree with that, or is it going to take longer?
GEN. FRANK MCKENZIE (RET.): You know, I always hesitate to put time on a — to put a timeline on a military operation like this, but I would say the Iranians would be very well served to listen to President Trump when he says he’s going to hit him, because he’s — he’s proven that he’s willing to do that.
So that’s the lesson I would learn from his most recent pronouncement and from actually what we’ve done in the war to this date. If the president says we’re going to do something, we’re probably going to do it, and it probably is good time for the Iranian leadership to take note of that fact.
ED O’KEEFE: All right, we’ll leave it there.
General McKenzie, happy Easter again. Thank you for spending some time with us this morning. We appreciate it.
And Face the Nation will be back in one minute. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ED O’KEEFE: On Friday, we traveled to the Maryland Statehouse in Annapolis to speak with the Democratic governor, Wes Moore.
The interview occurred shortly after we learned the U.S. fighter jet had been shot down over Iran and before any crew members had been rescued.
Here’s our conversation.
(Begin VT)
ED O’KEEFE: We’re meeting amid an ongoing war that is having a bit of an effect on the economy, rising gas prices. Inflation keeps creeping up. It was a decent jobs report on Friday, but mortgage rates are climbing and mortgage applications are down.
You observe this as a governor, and you know that residents in your state are feeling the economic pinch. What can you do as a governor to address all of this?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE (D-Maryland): Well, we are feeling it.
And it is true that, you know, a governor does not control the fact that energy prices have spiked over the past year. You know, my — my mom’s energy bill in March of last year was $140. It’s now creeping close to $500. Governors don’t have full control over that.
Governors can’t control the fact that gas prices have gone up now over $1 because we decided to enter into another war of choice, that governors cannot control the fact that we are continuing to watch homes become more difficult and more expensive.
But the thing we can do as governors is, we can make sure that, even though I don’t control the price of food, that I can make sure that we’re not doing price manipulation and that these big corporations aren’t gouging our customers, as we’re doing here in the state of Maryland, you know, that I can make sure that, even though we are watching energy prices rise, that we can hold these data center companies accountable, and also making sure we’re giving a rebate and giving something back to the people of the state of Maryland, which we’re doing here.
ED O’KEEFE: Even your approval rating appears to have taken a hit in recent days, at least in one survey. And among those who disapproved, they cited raising taxes and fees.
There’s been some conversation in this state at least about possibly waiving the gas tax for a little while. It is one of the higher ones in the country. You say governors can’t do much about the gas price. You could conceivably establish a gas price holiday, no?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Yes, I mean, the best thing that we could do to be able to address gas prices is by stop fighting foreign wars and stop watching gas prices jump up over $1.
ED O’KEEFE: So you agree with the president’s theory that it will go back down once the war is over?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: No, I disagree, because I think the president still does not have a full articulation as to why gas prices are going up in the first place or what’s going to be necessary or required to be able to bring them down.
You know, I think about what we’ve done here in Maryland to address that, where we’ve actually given the middle class in Maryland a tax cut, because I do believe that we need to give the middle class a little bit of extra relief now.
And we ask the wealthiest of Marylanders to be able to invest a little bit more, so we can do things like having the rising, you know, increases in reading and math scores like we’re seeing in Maryland, and the fact that Maryland now has amongst the fastest drops in violent crime anywhere in the United States of America.
And we ask the wealthiest of Marylanders to be able to do more to participate in that.
ED O’KEEFE: So, gas tax holiday is off the table, then, in your view?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Yes, I think we need to stop fighting these — these forever wars.
And, you know, and I think about the fact that we are — we are very dangerously — we’re lurching again into another forever war. And this is a forever war that is very similar to the one that I fought in, where I led soldiers with the 82nd Airborne Division in Afghanistan.
And I know that the United States was in Afghanistan for 20 years, that it cost this country over $2.5 trillion, that we lost over 2,400 American lives. And we did it because we said we wanted to change the Taliban.
And 20 years later, you know who’s in charge of Afghanistan? The Taliban. And so I feel like we are lurching into another one of these forever wars that we’re asking the American people to pay for, but we have still — but the president of the United States and the commander in chief has still yet to articulate what exactly it is that we’re doing.
ED O’KEEFE: As we meet here, there are search-and-rescue operations underway now inside Iran because a U.S. fighter jet has been shot down. In recent days, the president suggested this operation will be done in two to three weeks.
That doesn’t seem to sit with you.
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: It’s — this is sitting horribly with me, because I’m thinking about these families. I’m thinking about the families of our service members who — right now who are afraid to pick up the phone because they’re afraid to hear what is on the other end of the line, that we had a president of the United States talk about the military success that we have seen thus far, while still acknowledge — without acknowledging the fact of the long road ahead.
And no one understands or can — has been articulated to us what exactly it is that we are doing or what success looks like. And so I’m — I’m praying for these families, but also what I’m praying for is some clarity from the White House.
ED O’KEEFE: You’re giving three commencement addresses this season to members of the class of 2026. And one of them is at the military prep school that you attended.
A bunch of those students may be heading into the services right away. What would be your message to them?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: I’m so proud of the fact that I — I’m going to give the commencement at a school that helped to save my life.
You know, I got — I got sent there because I — people always say, why’d you choose to go to military school? I say, no one chooses to go to military school. I was sent because I was angry, because I was frustrated, because I had a difficult childhood.
And that place helped to save my life. And I’m proud to go back and talk to these cadets. I also know that there will be some of those cadets who will then choose to join the military. And what I’m going to tell them is, I’m proud of them. I’m proud of them for choosing a life of service. I’m proud of them for being able to fight for our country and fight for our democracy.
But I am also praying for them and I’m praying for the leadership of this country that they will make decisions with them and their families in mind, and not just simply make decisions that I think have been just wrong-headed and foolish on their face.
ED O’KEEFE: Part of the reason I wanted to speak with you is, in another recent interview, you floated a theory of what the next president is going to have to figure out and how to organize what President Trump has done in — as you said, into five distinct buckets: what’s broken and irreparable, what’s broken and can be fixed, what’s broken and needs to be fixed differently, what survives but needs to be broken, and what survives and needs to be sustained.
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: You’ve given this some thought.
So I wanted to walk you through some specific things and sort of wonder what — what buckets they would fall into.
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: OK.
ED O’KEEFE: Where would you put Iran?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Well, I would actually put Iran into a larger bucket, and that is…
ED O’KEEFE: A sixth bucket?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Well, how we think about foreign wars.
ED O’KEEFE: OK.
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Right?
Because, you know, I think about Donald Trump ran making three promises, right, that he was going to bring prices down, that he was going to release the Epstein files, and that he was not going to get us involved in foreign wars.
And the American people voted for that. And it’s strike one, strike two, strike three, because, on each and every one of those things that he promised, he did not make happen. And so, when I talk about how the United States military can and should be used, as someone who has served, as someone who has fought for this country, I know there is — there are times when the — when the — when the United States military, the world’s greatest military, can and should be used.
And let’s be clear. Let’s not confuse military success with the United States military with strategic success.
ED O’KEEFE: So, thinking ahead, Iran, is it broken and irreparable? Does it survive and need to be sustained? Is it broken, need to be fixed differently, the relationship with Iran?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: I think that — that the relationship with Iran right now is — is not just broken, but I’m not sure if there has been an articulation of what the path forward is.
And when we’re talking about Iran, you’re not just talking about the relationship with Iran. You’re talking about Iran’s relationship with other countries. You’re talking about a larger foreign policy, you know, complication.
And, by the way, we have decided to start this war when we’re also doing two separate things, that we’ve essentially obliterated what we have in terms of our soft power, USAID, how America does its foreign aid, and we’re doing it while the Department of Homeland Security, whose job it is to keep the homeland safe, is shut down.
So, this is the — this is the — the — the — frankly, just the foolishness in the way that we’re approaching issues of war and peace that I think we’ve got to be able to address.
ED O’KEEFE: What bucket would you put the U.S.’ relationship with Israel in?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Well, I — I think the U.S. relationship with — with Israel is — is an important relationship.
But I think, with any important relationship, there needs to be accountability. You know, I look at the fact that we’re fighting this — this — this — this war in Iran, and one of the things that — there’s three things you always hope for as a soldier, right, that war should always be the last resort, that the second piece should always be that you are clear about your mission and clear about your endgame.
And the third is that you have built an international coalition. We haven’t done any of those things with this war that we are waging in Iran.
ED O’KEEFE: In the midst of all this, the president in recent days told a gathering at the White House that, in his view, because of the 50 states — quote — “It’s not possible for us to take care of day care, Medicaid, Medicare, all these individual things.”
He argues the federal government shouldn’t have to pay for those programs because — quote — “We have to take care of one thing, military protection.”
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: That’s nonsense. And that’s not what any of us want. We don’t want to be fighting foreign wars while you’re taking away our health care.
ED O’KEEFE: Could a state even pay for Medicaid and Medicare…
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: No.
ED O’KEEFE: … day care without federal assistance?
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: So many of the decisions that this White House is making, they are making with a clear understanding that no state has a budget to say, OK, well, we’ll just take on health care or we’ll just take on food insecurity.
We saw that happen last year when the president of the United States broke the law in order to cut SNAP. In fact, we sued them, and we won, and we beat him in court on this. But we…
ED O’KEEFE: It sounds like he’s going to try again, though.
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: And — and — and he did try again. He actually tried to appeal the fact and, you know, threw a temper tantrum, because he felt — because the judges told him that actually, no, you need to pay for food assistance for people.
And what we ended up doing is, in Maryland, I actually took $63 million out of our Fiscal Responsibility Fund, which is a fund that is made up of capital gains taxes, and I said, I’m not going to let the people of my state go hungry because Washington is throwing — having a food fight.
And so we made sure that SNAP and SNAP benefits were not going to be cut for the people of Maryland. But it is a deeply unfair ask to ask states and/or governors, because we do things that the federal government has never done — we actually balance our budgets.
And it is an unfair ask to ask us to take on what should be a joint responsibility because the federal government has decided to stop doing its job.
ED O’KEEFE: We have to leave it there, Governor, but thank you for taking the time.
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Thank you.
ED O’KEEFE: And happy Easter.
GOVERNOR WES MOORE: Happy Easter.
(End VT)
ED O’KEEFE: We will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ED O’KEEFE: On Thursday we spoke with Archbishop Timothy Broglio, the archdiocese for the military services. He oversees more than 200 priests serving as catholic chaplains in the U.S. military on bases and the battlefield.
We begin by asking about the situation in the Middle East and the spiritual guidance the church is providing to service members who seek it.
(BEGIN VT)
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO (Archdiocese for the Military Services): We’re dealing with a situation in the Middle East now, for example, where the chaplains are still in place but many of the dependents have been moved to Europe or back to the United States. So, they find themselves in a situation where the faithful to whom they were ministering are either gone or they’re in hotels. So, that changes the whole reality.
And then there are others, of course, who are with the troops that are — have been moved in and, of course, they’re — ministry in a certain sense is a little more — a little more regular. But it’s still a challenge because of the situation.
ED O’KEEFE: Given that you’re a priest ministering to people in the military, I imagine much of your work, much of your focus is built around St. Augustine and the idea of just war. Or when is war justified. The idea that it’s only waged as a necessity and in order that peace may be obtained and more broadly perhaps that the response is proportional.
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: Correct.
ED O’KEEFE: That’s to gloss over pretty deep teachings.
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: But essentially that’s the root of it.
I know that after the president, for example, threatened to take Greenland by force, you had said in an interview, “it doesn’t seem acceptable to invade a friendly nation,” and that “such rhetoric tarnishes the images of the United States.” You said it would be an “illegal and immoral order to kill deliberately the survivors abord an alleged Venezuelan (AUDIO GAP) armed forces.
So, given what’s going on in the Middle East, I’m curious, is the war with Iran justified?
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: I would think under the justify — under the just war theory, it is not because while there is a — there was a threat with nuclear arms, it’s a — it’s compensating for a threat before the threat is actually realized. And I think there I would — I would line myself up with Pope Leo, who has been urging for negotiation.
I realize also that you can say, well, with whom are you going to negotiate? And that — that is — that is a problem. But in the meantime, lives are being lost, both there and also among our — our troops. So, it’s — it is a — it is a concern.
ED O’KEEFE: And so if you’re hearing from a service member who says, if your teachings, if your guidance says this is not justified, what am I to do as a catholic who’s in the service?
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: And that’s a very good question because, obviously, the way conscientious objection is set up in the United States’ military, you cannot object to a specific war or a specific action. You can only object to, I’m opposed to war. So, I would think it depends on where you are in the — in the chain of command. Obviously, you know, the Marine who’s given an order, he’s not in a position really to resist that order. I mean he has to obey unless it’s clearly immoral. And then he would probably have to speak to his, you know, to his chaplain, to his chain of command.
The question might be, would — you know, would generals or admirals have space to perhaps say, can we look at this a different way?
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: But having spoken to some of them too, they’re — they’re also on the same — in the same dilemma. So — I guess my counsel would be to do as little harm as you — as you can and to try and preserve innocent lives.
ED O’KEEFE: And you’re approaching this from a moral perspective. This isn’t a partisan thing. This isn’t ideological for you or geopolitical. It’s, you’re a moral leader. So, obviously, someone in the service who grapples with this will seek guidance from you and your brother chaplains. How often do they come to you talking about how to seek forgiveness perhaps for being part of this?
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: That is actually something we’ve done a lot of work on as an archdiocese, the whole question of moral injury. So, I mean, even if you obey a legitimate command but you have to kill someone, that’s going to leave some traces in — you know, in your — in your heart or on your soul. And so there we’ve tried to provide structures and help to people in that situation to try and help them heal from those — from those situations. And that’s not a question of making a judgment, it’s just a question of healing the individual who finds himself in that — or herself in that — in that situation.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
You, obviously, and your — and your brother priests are on Pentagon property taking orders, obviously, through the military chain of command. There’s been a lot of conversation in recent weeks, separate from actual war itself, regarding the rhetoric of say the secretary of defense, Pete Hegseth, who openly invokes Jesus repeatedly when talking about the war with Iran especially and has prayed openly from the Pentagon press room for blessings upon American service members. Obviously, his right to pray in public and however he sees fit.
But what do you make of that sort of focus and sort of trying to cast this war as something that perhaps Jesus would justify?
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: It’s a little bit problematic in the sense that, you know, the Lord Jesus certainly brought a message of — a message of peace. And also I think war is always a last resort. Now, you know, they may have information that led them to think that that was the only choice they had. I’m not making a judgment about that because I really don’t know.
ED O’KEEFE: No.
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: But I do think that it’s hard to cast this war, you know, as something that would be sponsored by the Lord.
ED O’KEEFE: And that’s certainly something the pope has suggesting himself, right?
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: Not commenting on the secretary, but commenting on war generally. That this idea that, you know, if you’re praying for the success of the war, what is it he said recent, he said, God does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war but rejects them.
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: I mean that would seem to put a lot of what’s going on right now in conflict.
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: It certainly — it certainly would. And I turn back to — just to Paul VI, who made very few trips outside of Italy. But when he did come to the U.N., he made that dramatic appeal, which I saw live on television as a — as a little kid. You know, (Speaking in Foreign Language), never again war, never again war. And yet that was in 1965, I think. Now, so many years later, we’re still — we’re still in this situation. So, I think — I think I would be in — I think Pope Leo would definitely support saying that, you know, we have to find a situation where men and women can sit down and find avenues of peace.
ED O’KEEFE: In our remaining moments, you obviously minister primarily to catholic service members. But this is a holy season. Passover underway. Ramadan recently having ended. And ultimately on the battlefield, it doesn’t matter to your brother chaplains whether they’re catholic or protestant or Jewish. What’s the interfaith dialogue like these days, especially at a time of war?
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: I think it’s very healthy in the sense that there is a genuine desire to collaborate. Actually, I know most of the rabbis in the services because we frequently travel at the same — the same time, for us, Christmas and Easter, for them, Passover and Hanukkah.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: And they’re fewer in number. So, I certainly get to meet them. But there is a genuine spirit of collaboration and there’s a desire to facilitate the work of chaplains and I think that’s a very — it’s a very healthy thing.
ED O’KEEFE: Well, thank you for being here on this Easter weekend. And thank you, obviously, for your service, not only to the country, but to the faith. We appreciate you spending some time with us.
ARCHBISHOP TIMOTHY BROGLIO: Thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity.
(END VT)
ED O’KEEFE: And we’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ED O’KEEFE: We turn now to our political panel. David Sanger is the White House and national security correspondent for “The New York Times” and the author of “New Cold Wars.” The paperback copy is coming out on Tuesday. You should check that out. Amy Walter is the publisher and editor-in-chief of “The Cook Political Report with Amy Walter.” And Jeff Mason is a Washington correspondent at “Bloomberg,” making his “FACE THE NATION” debut.
So, Jeff, at least under my rules, you get the first question.
JEFF MASON (Washington Correspondent, “Bloomberg”): OK.
ED O’KEEFE: This past week the White House tried selling the war with Iran as a good thing. Then we had this fighter jet shot down. Both personnel on board have now been rescued. How’s that sales pitch landing with the American public?
JEFF MASON: Well, number one, I think it’s right to call it a sales pitch. And it’s a late sales pitch because the president did not give an address like that at the beginning of the war, which most presidents would do before a military conflict. Number two, in the address on Wednesday night, he really used sales pitchy language, talking about how long previous wars have been, how this is not going to be that long, going back to World War I and World War II.
But then the political risk to those remarks and his entire sort of strategy rhetorically skyrocketed after an airplane was shot down in Iran. So, certainly the fact that they have found that crewman is a huge political win for him. But there is sill substantial political risk because, to your question, this is a very unpopular war. There’s still some support within his base for it, but polling shows that Americans writ large do not.
ED O’KEEFE: So, this is still a timeline, the two to three week conversation more rooted in perhaps economic considerations and military goals, at least based on your reporting?
JEFF MASON: He is under significant pressure because of the gasoline prices being up. It also has taken away, speaking of rhetoric, a talking point that he’s been very happy to use for the last year and a half, saying that he’s responsible for having brought prices down. Now he is clearly responsible for having brought prices up, and that’s something that Americans will think about when they go to the polls.
ED O’KEEFE: So, Amy, this was supposed to be the year of affordability for the White House and Republicans.
AMY WALTER (Editor-In-Chief, Cook Political Report): It was.
ED O’KEEFE: It’s not really — at least that’s not the focus right now. We — I mean our polling, for example, 84 percent of Republicans are still with him on this war.
AMY WALTER: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: But nearly 70 percent of independents disapprove of military action. This is all — I mean it’s April.
AMY WALTER: This is all churning up.
ED O’KEEFE: Churning towards trouble in November, right?
AMY WALTER: Yes. Yes. Now, look, it is only April. So, we still have time for this to move its way through the process. And it is true that the president now is looking at his lowest approval ratings of his second term this week. And a lot of that is driven by the fact that he’s lost the sort of strong support from Republicans. I don’t think Republicans have left him. I just think that they are feeling very dispirited. And that is what gets Republicans the most nervous is intensity and enthusiasm. Democrats are fired up. Republicans are not. If that continues as we move through this electoral season, that’s when things get really bad for the Republican Party in November.
ED O’KEEFE: David, this rescue operation, successful, elaborate and was executed in under 48 hours. But what do you make of it and what we’ve heard from the president this morning? A bunch of language we can’t repeat on broadcast television.
DAVID SANGER (White House and National Security Correspondent, “NEW YORK TIMES”: Yes. So, first, we should all celebrate the fact that they’ve got both these crewmen back.
ED O’KEEFE: Absolutely.
DAVID SANGER: It’s a miracle. And it’s an equal miracle that you could put hundreds of troops in to get them out and no casualties there.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
DAVID SANGER: We’ve lost six aircraft in the past couple of days. They can be replaced or repaired. But the fact of the matter is that that tells you there’s accelerating risk here. And if you took the president’s threat this morning to go after bridges and go after the electric grid, we’ll set aside for a moment, Ed, the fact that these would probably be war crimes under the Geneva Convention.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
DAVID SANGER: The White House will argue it wasn’t because it also feeds the military.
If you set that aside, the fact remains that the president still finds himself in a box here. He’s trying to open up the Strait. That was a problem that got created after the war started.
He has not really explained how he’s going to deal with the nuclear material and near bomb grade material. He said that was a reason to go in. This past week he said, oh, I don’t really care about it that much. It’s buried deep. We’ll watch it on satellite. Well, we were watching it on satellite before the war started, right?
And I know he says there’s been regime change but we haven’t seen much regime change here.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
DAVID SANGER: We have just seen the change of personnel.
So, he’s got a lot of things to go accomplish if he’s going to get out of this and be able to claim to those voters that he got something out of this.
AMY WALTER: Well, and more to that point, the budget that he put forward this week is spending so much more money on the military than on domestic priorities. And that goes — that —
DAVID SANGER: $1.5 trillion.
AMY WALTER: That’s right.
ED O’KEEFE: And he made that —
AMY WALTER: That cuts against everything what (ph) your saying, we need to make life more affordable. Our number one priority is to make life more affordable for Americans. To release a budget that increases money only for the military and then cuts domestic programs is not a great pitch.
ED O’KEEFE: And he made that astounding comment that because the federal government should only be focused on military protection, the state should pay for Medicare, Medicaid and daycare, and it was caught on camera, probably coming to campaign ads near us soon.
JEFF MASON: I was just going to say, you know how both Republicans and Democrats hear a quote that they think, oh, that’s going to be the lead of my next campaign ad. That’s one for Democrats.
And he risks — he’s not just losing some Dems, certainly independents going into this election, but he — he’s testing the tolerance of his base.
I was at CPAC a little over a week ago and there were a lot of grassroots supporters there who said we still support President Trump, we still support this war. But there were certainly some who started to question it. And we’ve also seen quite a bit of division at the leader level of MAGA and Republicans and that messaging sinks down to the base as well.
AMY WALTER: Yes.
ED O’KEEFE: In our remaining moments, Amy, I want to start with you. You heard Governor Moore. More than happy to criticize the war effort. But failed to provide any specifics on what he’d do differently. And that — while Republicans are —
AMY WALTER: Well, this is —
ED O’KEEFE: In a bit of a — in a bit of a pickle this year —
AMY WALTER: Right.
ED O’KEEFE: Democrats aren’t much liked for that very reason.
AMY WALTER: Pickle. This is what’s going to be fascinating. This 2028 election cycle that we are very close to come — bumping into, believe it or not, is going to be the first election in ten years where Donald Trump is not the centerpiece of it. Or where candidates should — would do well to not make Donald Trump the centerpiece of it. I think Americans are looking for, for both parties, an idea of who these parties are, what they stand for, what they’re going to do for me, rather than how they’re going to fit into a world that Trump has really dominated politically for the last many, many years.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes. I gave him credit for the idea that — I was intrigued by that buckets theory that he had, but he clearly couldn’t fill it yet.
AMY WALTER: Well, yes.
ED O’KEEFE: And that’s part of the problem he’s —
AMY WALTER: This is what — and this is — we’re at this place, and you know because you’re going to be at a lot of these games.
ED O’KEEFE: Right.
AMY WALTER: This is spring training for politicians right now. And this is how they get their swings in.
ED O’KEEFE: In our remaining minute, David, I’d be remiss if we didn’t mention today the ouster of Army Chief of Staff General Randy George.
DAVID SANGER: Right.
ED O’KEEFE: Essentially pushed out by Pete Hegseth.
What does removing someone like him do to the officer ranks and to the rank and file overall?
DAVID SANGER: So, I think what surprised people is the degree to which Secretary Hegseth has reached way down into the system. And the split with Randy George was in part over Hegseth’s insistence that they not promote two black and two women candidates for one star general.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
DAVID SANGER: Very rare you’d see anybody get into that.
Just one last, quick point on your interesting interview with Governor Moore.
What I think Democrats have to get their heads around now is, what are they going to say about Iran?
ED O’KEEFE: Yes.
DAVID SANGER: Are we — can we leave nuclear material there? What are they going to say about the priorities of a president who has not emphasized China, which we have been told is the existential political and economic and technological competitor? We haven’t heard that from them yet.
ED O’KEEFE: We have not. We will wait to hear from that — from them about that in the coming months.
Thank you all for being here.
We have to go to the moon next. So, well, kind of. We’ll explain in a moment. Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
ED O’KEEFE: This morning, the Artemis II crew is closer to the moon than ever before. Here’s a look at the exterior of the Orion capsule this morning. The four astronauts inside are prepping a six-hour fly-by around the far side of the moon tomorrow.
For an update, we go now to NASA Administrator Jared Isaacman, who is inside Houston’s Mission Control.
Administrator, thank you so much for being here with us.
The four astronauts on board are roughly halfway through the mission now. What, in your view, the most critical moment of the next 24 to 48 hours?
JARED ISAACMAN (NASA Administrator): Well, I would say — and first, good morning. Happy Easter, Ed.
What — the primary objective right now for this phase of the mission is continuing to gather data from the ECLIS system, the life support system on the Orion spacecraft. This is the first time we’ve ever had humans on board the Orion spacecraft. We want to gather as much data as we possibly can for that. Of course, there’s various science experiments. There’s lunar observations. But learning as much as we can about Orion is critically important because Artemis III is a year away. That’s where we’re going to test the same spacecraft with our lunar landers. Followed up in 2028 by Artemis IV, where we’re going to use this spacecraft transfer crew to the landers and put American astronauts back on the surface of the moon.
ED O’KEEFE: You make a good point, this is a test mission and it’s testing as much the vessel that they’re in as much as what they’re looking for. But they are going to have to spends some time on Monday essentially looking out the windows and looking for parts of the moon that we essentially have not really seen before. What specifically are they looking for?
JARED ISAACMAN: Well, I would have to say, after a 250,000-mile journey away from earth to the far side of the moon, it would be pretty hard to keep them away from those windows.
ED O’KEEFE: Absolutely.
JARED ISAACMAN: But they absolutely have observation responsibilities on that. They have a series of different cameras. They’re going to get data from that for sure. They’ve actually had an opportunity for three and a half years to train for this mission, to work with our scientists on the information they would like to gather most about the far side of the moon. But all of this comes together to inform subsequent missions like Artemis III, but most importantly now Artemis IV, which is where we’re going to actually get those astronauts back on the surface.
ED O’KEEFE: Yes, to your point, you want to land one and possibly two missions on the moon just two years from now. NASA hired SpaceX and Blue Origin to build the lunar landers that will deliver astronauts to the surface of the moon. What are you doing to ensure that at least one of the two companies is going to be ready to do that?
JARED ISAACMAN: Well, I’ll tell you, we’re doing a lot of things different over the last couple months, right? I mean President Trump gave me a national space policy that called for America’s return to the moon with frequency to establish an enduring presence, the build the moon base and do other exciting things like nuclear power and propulsion. And we got $10 billion worth of resources out of the one big, beautiful bill, the Working Families Tax Cut Act. Now we are actually going to work. We are taking NASA’s subject matter experts and we are embedding them across the supply chain. Every prime contractor, sub-contractor, every component on the critical path from the rocket itself to the landers to the suits that astronauts will need to wear on the surface of the moon. And we are driving outcomes. We are not going to be passive anymore. We’re not going to let budgets — you know, get overbudget or behind schedule. Not when there’s so much at stake when it comes to America’s return to the moon.
So, we are driving outcomes and that certainly includes the lunar landers.
ED O’KEEFE: Quickly then, how does a budget — proposed budget cut of more than 20 percent potentially affect these plans?
JARED ISAACMAN: Yes, so I certainly support President Trump and his 2027 budget request. Look, we have a — we have 26 appropriations, we have $10 billion in supplemental funding that came out of the — President Trump’s signature legislation, the Working Family Tax Cut Act. I mean, this is the biggest, you know, supplemental invest in NASA since the Kennedy era. These resources are the only reason we can accelerate production to get to the moon, to add a mission in ’27, which is Artemis III, to build the moon base and do all the other things like launching the first interplanetary nuclear powered spacecraft in 2028 that’s going to go past Mars, release a bunch of copters and a whole lot of other science missions. I think the American public and the taxpayers should be judging NASA based on outcomes and not how quickly we can spend money every year.
ED O’KEEFE: In 20 seconds of less, as they pass on the other side of the moon tomorrow for about 40 minutes, what’s going to — what are you going to be thinking about as the astronauts do that?
JARED ISAACMAN: Well, I got to tell you, people have been asking meme questions about the, you know, the loss of comms as we go around the moon. That is something we’re very used to in space flight. Mission Control, as you said. Astronauts are used to that as they go through training. So, less about the loss of comm on the far side of the moon. I’m always going to be thinking about the life support systems on the vehicle because it’s a test mission. But I’ll tell you, most importantly, I’m thinking about the thermal protection systems and when these astronauts are under parachute, safely in the water so we can get them back to their families.
ED O’KEEFE: Administrator Jared Isaacman, in Houston, thank you so much for joining us on this Easter Sunday. We appreciate it.
And that is it for us today. Thank you for watching. Margaret will be back next Sunday.
Until then, for “FACE THE NATION,” I’m Ed O’Keefe.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)